christian comic project?

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Vince
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Post by Vince » Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:12 am

Rad, that is an extremely accurate summation of the basic Protestant view of Christianity. However, I grew up Catholic, so that particular type of Christianity (the "Gandhi goes to Hell" version) is one I have never agreed with. That same debate of faith vs. works was actually a bone of contention during the Protestant Reformation.

In any case, the most compelling aspect of Christianity is the core idea that God loves you infinitely and unconditionally. Christianity's emphasis on selflessness and its powerful message of redemption are ideas that would stay with me whether or not I stay "Christian" my whole life. Yet as time goes on I see the concept of "good" and ethical/moral "rightness" as being distinct from formal religion.
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Post by jdalton » Fri Feb 10, 2006 12:21 pm

Kean wrote: However, I do see logic and reasoning as separate from this, and yes, I did attack Jonathan for his line of reasoning, and that's something I am very sorry for.
I'm not. I was quite happy to explain myself. :D As you quite rightly noticed, my use of words was a bit muddled and I may have slightly over-emphasized my lack of faith in reality. All this stuff makes sense in my own head, but I don't have much practice explaining my views to others.
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Rad Sechrist
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Post by Rad Sechrist » Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:01 pm

Vince: Shows how much I know. I assumed all the Christian denominations had the same basic core belief, but had extra beliefs on top of that. I wish religion were more like math.

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Post by Mike Laughead » Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:37 pm

Vince wrote:Yet as time goes on I see the concept of "good" and ethical/moral "rightness" as being distinct from formal religion.
Being a member of a formal religion, I was thinking about this idea. I realized that the purpose of religion is to save the members, therefore, if everyone was "saved" or doing what they were supposed to, there would be no religion needed. Because we don't do what we are supposed to, I see a need for an organized way to help us do that.

I feel that the concept of good and evil and ethics and morals are something that mankind shares because we are all spirit children of our heavenly father. I also feel like there are so many similarities and truths in many religions and cultures because all cultures came from the one culture that Adam and Eve started, that was taught to them by God.

I am just curious, how many Christians on this forum believe in an actual Adam and Eve, as opposed to an alegorical (is that spelled right?) story?
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Vince
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Post by Vince » Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:40 pm

Rad, you know a lot, especially for an atheist.

There is a core belief of Christianity, that God so loved the world that He gave it His only Son, Jesus Christ, who died to absolve humanity of its sin; and that Christ rose three days later in triumph over death. Beyond that, I would say that nearly everything is a subject of debate among Christians.
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Post by jshamblin » Sat Feb 11, 2006 7:32 am

Hi all, I'm new here (this is only my second post), but I'd love to submit a story for this project. I'm Christian, but I would like to tackle a story from the view of an atheist. I think it would be a great learning experience for me. There's a lot of posts here, so I think I'm going to read a few more before posting on the ones I've already read. Has the cutoff date for submissions be set?

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Post by Blom » Sat Feb 11, 2006 8:56 am

gau dog wrote:Debates are good as long as they're respectful and good natured. We can understand our misunderstandings :? .

What sort of proof outside of eyewitness accounts is necessary or appropriate in order to determine Jesus was the son of God, that he did all these miraculous things, etc... Proving actions vs. proving something scientific can be different things. Especially historical actions. The case for Christ is different from testing the theory of gravity. How can you use science to prove a miracle that defies science? I know it's tough. When I hear of miracles happening today, it's easy to be skeptical. But they come from sincere, genuine, rational people who would die for their belief.
Have not read every post that has come on this topic but I have seen it has gone into thinking how to look at the topic and how to make stories out of it. I think this might be a way to begin it all. I have quited Gau Dogs post some pages back. You wrote of proofs of it, The Bible is the proof made by eyewitnesses and writen down. The communication was trough storytelling at that time, and the stories at that time was told with exactly the same words from one generation to the next (you know, they had not all kinds of media and the fast world we live in now) so the stories in the Bible is probably as near up to the words that the eyewitness told. And The Bible was writen about 60 - 130 years after it happend. There is also other writings about a man named Jesus waking in the same erea where the Bible tells. So historians and science people say that a man was waking around in the erea at that time doing stuff that got church and state worried. Then if we see this as a historical fact that he was there you are down to the next question "Was Jesus the son of God?". The answer to that question is read the Bible and think do I belive this happend? Becouse if this had been science that they can say God is out there, then it would no longer be something that you chose to belive in. It would be a fact, this is not what God wanted, he wanted people to belive, not say they know it.
If this is a question that is up in your head, then see the movie Contact that goes trough the theam very nice. It is said in the Bible that you can´t know you can only belive, and it is why we don´t have proof of God or that Jesus was the son of God.

But, science has not proof that God don´t exsist.

90 % of all humans belive that there is some higher power of some sort working in the universe. About 33% of the humans belive that Jesus is son of God.

The atheist say that 90% of all humans on this planet is totaly wrong.

Here is an way to look upon belife:
Do you have a bread in your house, and do you belive that a baker created it? Then find the baker in the bread, is he there? No, becouse he made a perfect bread without loosing any fingers, so you don´t find the baker there, but his spirit is in every part of it, in the way he made it and got it to be a bread.

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Post by jshamblin » Sat Feb 11, 2006 9:58 am

What I find funny about this discussion is that neither side can really prove
anything about man's origin, but everyone believes in something or searching for something to believe in. The only thing for certain is that our beliefs are based on truths as we know them.

I guess my story wrote itself.

[edit: spelling]
Last edited by jshamblin on Sat Feb 11, 2006 12:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by jdalton » Sat Feb 11, 2006 10:27 am

Blom wrote:90 % of all humans belive that there is some higher power of some sort working in the universe. About 33% of the humans belive that Jesus is son of God.

The atheist say that 90% of all humans on this planet is totaly wrong.
Contact was a great movie, and the book was even better, but I would advise against deciding Truth in a democratic way. I'm sure there are all sorts of important things that 90% of the world is wrong about.
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Post by Michael Firman » Sat Feb 11, 2006 2:08 pm

Well if everyone else is posting...

Part 1: Religious Comics

First thing I feel obligated to mention is how well this (or more specifically, the "Multifaith Anthology" idea) coincides with a concept I've had in passing for a comic book.

I've always heartily enjoyed the discussion and debate over religion and science, as many of you are in this thread. I love how, as long as it remains civil, the situation effectively births an unintended instance of multiculturalism. A variety of viewpoints and upbringings come together, in agreement or clashing, where they are free to exist as they are.

That is the sentiment I thought would make for an entertaining comic book. Effectively, the archetypical discussion of science and all religions, translated into comic-form. Something with the weight of McCloud's narration with light-hearted humour that interjects the intense (and possibly heated) arguments.

But the idea gets better... catch this: the entire book is a collaboration among a team of artists. Not necessarily an anthology where there are distinctly seperate contributions from the artists, but a single, long comic wherein each of the artists participate together. Perhaps most logical would be the artists providing self-caricatures as the alter egos that relay their input for the discussion in the book, but it might also be fun to invent characters (a priest, the devil, and a talking chicken walk into a bar...) and have them carry out the conversation instead.

The project would begin with a scripted discussion, not entirely unlike what has been happening in this thread, but with more revision and consideration as to how it would appear in print. The team of artists each have their own opinions that they have offered in the argument, and what they would illustrate in the comic, possibly in the same panel as another artist, is their character offering their dialogue in the discussion. I find this concept to be very interesting, an attempt to unify artistic styles via a governing conversation and, obviously, collective attention to how the pictures are turning out.

With good conversationalists, the exchange could be illustrated with a surprising level of visual interest. Drawing out metaphors and parables, trying to convey emotion... there would certainly be opportunity to segue into flings of artistic freedom and exploration.

So yeah, that was one of my crazy ideas. A collaborative, conversational comic, to put it alliteratively. A discussion designed not necessarily to reach any concrete conclusion, but to embrace, celebrate, and share the diversity of opinion that is promininent in threads like these, and present it to readers who surely must have some personal opinion (and therefore, interest) of their own in the topic.

"Getting a team of artists to work on the same comics? Multiple people planning layout, pencilling, inking, colouring...? Michael (uh, or Tripwire), this idea is MAD."

Yes, yes it is. But doesn't that make it awesome?

The concept is viable, difficult though it may be :)


Part 2: My Religious Standpoint

I won't elaborate on this aspect of the conversation in as detailed a manner as I did the first, but I will provide to you what I have determined (in a recent conversation with that Nick fellow) to be my chief principles of faith regarding God.

1. If there is a greater, all-controlling power, I reserve my devotion and faith unto it, but I will not show such until it reveals itself in a concrete manner. (bonus points if God shows up at my front door as an animate blob of wet concrete)

2. If this power exists, but chooses not to reveal itself to test our faith, I will not show devotion. This is because there are an infinite number of other theoretical powers that could be doing the same thing, and I do not wish to misplace my devotion. This is actually a gesture of courtesy unto the potential power, as I am circumventing the embarassing and insulting scenario of committing myself to the "incorrect religion".

If this is unacceptable to the greater power, then they're kind of being a dick, and I'll have to lodge a complaint in the afterlife.

3. If no greater power exists, then I have lost nothing by committing nothing without logical justification.

Those are the "rules" that basically guide my belief system, in what I think is a rational manner. And basically, I believe we should all sit on the fence :D I don't believe in God, and I don't believe in no God, because I just don't know. Anything is possible, and we don't know for certain what is right, so we probably shouldn't act like we do.


EDIT: I just realized my last paragraph comes off as sounding pretty invective, which wasn't my intention. We're all free to believe what we want, of course, I was just attempting to seek some middleground.
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Post by Nick » Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:14 pm

I’ve been watching this thread all week and I’ve been meaning to say something for the longest time. I admire how this thread has remained civil and I think that reflects the type of characters that Flight attracts as a whole. I must say I’m surprised at just how big a part Religion plays for many people on Flight. In part I suppose I’m surprised simply because it’s not promoted in the same way over here in the UK, so it’s interesting to see this type of diversity.

My dad was Christian, though I cannot say the same for myself as I’ve never really been to church. For whatever reason it was never something I was encouraged to do.

There is so much that we don’t understand, so much that we try to explain. The fact that you and I are here and are able to converse with each other, really is an oddity in itself. I certainly wouldn’t rule out the possibility of a greater power or powers, because there really is so much we don’t understand.

If I’m honest, the idea that there is something more, I find to be a comforting one. For me to dwell on the notion that there is nothing after this, it leaves me feeling rather empty. I compare it to impenetrable love and comfort a mother can bring to a child. Life is wondrous and rich, it’s also harsh and traumatic. It’s comforting to think that there is something more, that loves you and that in the end everything will be okay. I would think we all want to be loved, we seek partners, but still there is that little sense of isolation which is inherent in being an individual, which ‘hope’ in something more helps to fill.

I’m content not to know one way or the other. I think if I did know there was a God or Gods I would always be trying to do the ambiguous ‘right’ thing, living by a code which I hadn’t thought out and created for myself. As it stands I am who I am, I try to do the right thing, and I strive to be more. I like tripping up over my own feet as it were, personally I’d rather have it that way, than have someone tell me how to tie my shoelaces.

As people have mentioned though, it’s all about what’s right for the individual. That’s my view and I’m not trying to colour anyone else’s. :)
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Post by mr cow » Sat Feb 11, 2006 5:46 pm

okay, where was i? oh yeah! a christian comic anthology...

i'm very torn right now. there seems to be all this excitement generating over a faith anthology that really has me a bit dissapointed. my original reasoning for putting together a christian anthology was to start a long, circling debate over the basis of faith, atheism and christianity.

ha ha. just kidding. :D

but seriously, as much as i've thoroughly enjoyed this thread and as great as it's been to learn so much about the people on this forum in ways other then their art, it's really departed from what i was trying to accomplish.

when i first brought up the idea of this christian based project, there was a question of who it would actually be for. and my immediate answer was God. i wanted to do this for him. i wanted to use my love of comics to serve him in some way.

and then comes along this little whisper of a faith based project that echoed into a level of excitement that seems to be drowning out my original intentions. and that's fine. i have no problem with growing and changing ideas. that's why i posted the thought in this forum to begin with. i was even left thinking that this collection on faith would be a good idea as well. what an interesting project this could turn out to be with all these artist's interpretations on faith- really finding out where everybody is coming from and how they view the world and beyond. and when joe mentioned the name scattered (even though i don't think he intended it in this way)- that name just seemed like the perfect label to describe what a faith based anthology like this would be.

but i keep going back to that question. who would it serve?

i find it kind of strange in some ways that he's never been brought up. i mean he really goes hand in hand when talking about the other guy. maybe we're scared we might sound a little to much like dana carvey if we do, but for those of us who believe that God has a play in this, we have to believe that satan does as well. and he's a crafty individual. he can take any godly idea and turn it away from God if we're not too careful. i'm not saying that's the case here. far from it. i'm just saying we as christians have to be careful.

i'm going to run the risk of sounding even more spiritual right now (which is really odd, 'cause i've never really been) and say i really, trully, deeply believe God is calling me to start this project. i can't explain it. those of you who know what i'm talking about know what i mean. and it's not a feeling. it's just something you know.

my original intent for this project was to serve God. i feel like we've all unintentionally twisted that basis into something else. and i know this might be hard to hear, but are some of us excited about this because of Him, or because of ourselves?

i honestly believe that if everyone keeps their hearts fixed upon Christ, that love will come through in the stories we tell. i'm willing to run the risk of editing a book like that.

but i'm not going to discount the idea that a faith book could be any less important. it's just not what i want to do, or rather, what i feel God wants. i have a hard time seeing what purpose it would actually serve other than a broader understanding of what certain individuals believe. in the end, i think, the book would come across as kind of confusing and be more of a deterrence than an instument for serving Christ. and it would absolutely be a difficult thing to edit. ;)

so this is very hard, because i know i'm going to lose a lot of people that i would like to see involved in this project, but i want this to be a christian based anthology. i mentioned before what i'd like to see stories about:

God/Jesus/Christ, his impact, his history, his stories, his plans, his lessons, his glory, his sense of humor, his grace, his love, his decisions, his miracles, his disciples, his holiness and, of course, our faith in Him... no matter what kind of christian you are, i think we can all agree in those things. and what better way to give thanks to our Lord, then through our love of comics.

and i hope that those of us who really believe in Jesus will want be a part of this. but, like i said before, i’m not opposed to including non-christians, if their hearts so desire. i think a dialog of sorts between and atheist and a christian, much like this thread, would be an excellent addition to a project like this- especially since i don’t want it to be a “convince you we’re right” anthology. but ultimately i want the context of this book to be about God.

so that’s that. i’ll post submission guidelines this coming week, probably as a new post, so keep an eye out for that. other than that, for everyone who still wishes to discuss faith and belief, christianity and humanity…

by all means, continue. i’m having a lovely time. :)
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Post by Blom » Sat Feb 11, 2006 6:20 pm

Good to see you are bringing it back on track MrCow.

I for one belive that Jesus is the one to follow! And when I saw this topic first time I was finishing a alterbok that can be used on travels, made for the local student-church. I think your project is comming in a time when it is needed.

And I can see if I get a contact-adress for you about Peder Madsen. But I don´t know how easy it is, but the book may not be in english. I can´t find it in English, thou I was hoping it was. He did alot of research before he made it, so every image had boats, buildings and everything looed right for the time. It is in full color made with watercolor and I once was at a festival where he taked about his book and signing it, and his telling about this book was amazing.



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jshamblin
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Post by jshamblin » Sat Feb 11, 2006 6:52 pm

I have a friend who really wanted to draw a Christian comic, but feared that he would run out of gags about the bible. I asked him why do the gags have to be about the bible? Why can't he just be a Christian with Christian values- writing about whatever he wants. Wouldn't the fact that he's a Christian make the Lord just as happy?

Well, he ended up writing bible gags and ran out of material after a few weeks.

Anyway, I'll be happy to write a Christian themed story, but I don't want to illustrate a story from the bible. It's been done before and what can my silly little drawings add to it? I think that no matter what you believe in, or who you are, if you are a good writer, you can find it in yourself to write a story with basic Christain principles. Besides the debate about if there is a God, the underlined theme is about doing what is right and that good shall triumph over evil.

[edit grammar: Goes to show that I'm not a great writer, just some guy who likes to tell silly little stories.]

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Post by jdalton » Sun Feb 12, 2006 8:50 am

mr cow wrote:so this is very hard, because i know i'm going to lose a lot of people that i would like to see involved in this project, but i want this to be a christian based anthology.
Ultimately it's your book and you can do what you like with it. Likewise anyone else who wants to put together a book (like Tripwire, for example) can do the same. It's not like there's a shortage of really talented people around here.
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