The ELECTION thread...

[JonS]

I never thought of it as a lost cause though, and there's so much great stuff about our culture; I think opening your mind to this kind of information is actually really patriotic.

I really agree with that, and think that what america has afforded some people has decreased their ability to open their minds. We're so fast-paced and filled with semantics that many are either too busy in their lives to care or, for back of a better term, smugly opiniated. I hate seeing people twist current events to fit their views, and not the other way around.

We've got tons of intelligent, opiniated people in this country. If you're a kerry or bush supporter, or an anti or pro abortionist, or anti/pro regulationist, and you took 10 minutes to use all your logical and investigative smarts to form a case for the other side, you'd be surprised how much it would open your eyes. NOT for the purpose of swaying your beliefs, but simply to give you a better understanding of what occurs beyond your own scope of context.

[Biocreep]

here, take this test and see where you end up, its fun!

http://www.politicalcompass.org

also, u can see where the candidates are at on this spectrum as well as famous people. my score was

-7/-6.05 (bottom left)

i love all of you guys and your wacky comments xoxo

[dave roman]

Quite a lot to process in this thread!
Personally I’ve always been interested in politics since I was a kid and participated in a 5th grade mock election (Go Dukakis!). I loved debate class, I love plays and movies about lawyers and enjoy reading public discourse on message boards.

But I’m always scared to talk about religion or politics amongst people in my career of choice, because I know how riled up people can get, and as much as I love a good argument, I don’t enjoy the icky feeling of offending someone off. And since I can usually see both sides of arguments it’s easier to just step back and bite my tongue sometimes.
So I’m pretty impressed with how civil this forum is being about all this—especially since this is one of the most volatile campaigns I’ve ever watched go down.

Anyways, usually I tend to vote for 3rd parties whenever possible. Because if I don’t agree with the two mainstream choices (which is often) then I prefer to at least use my vote to encourage the CONCEPT of 3rd parties. Because I don’t think enough people take the concept seriously. After registering myself to the Green Party in 1999, the thing I hear people say to me the most is I’m throwing my vote away. Because people only like to vote for someone they know might win. No one likes to feel like they voted for a loser. This philosophy has always driven me crazy. I voted for Ralph Nader in the last election and I have no regrets, because I voted with my heart at the time. I didn’t like the hypocrisy of the democrats going on. I still don’t.

This year though I will most likely vote for John Kerry for president. I agree that he is not the BEST person to be president. But I don’t believe he will be a bad one.

I don’t believe Bush is evil, or an idiot like he is portrayed on TV. But I also believe in encouraging his concept of stubbornness in the face of world politics. Being confident in your beliefs doesn’t mean the same thing as being right. And I rather have a president who can see both sides of a situation—because life is complex and never just black and white, no matter how much you simplify it into a catch phrase. I like that he can consider himself a catholic but understand and respect a woman’s right to choose. Respectfully disagreeing is a noble gesture,

So to me being a “flip flopper” isn’t a bad thing. People shouldn’t be treated as being a bad leader because they change their opinion as NEW information and facts come to the surface. They should evolve and grow. Not stick to old speculation and a need to be proven right.

[BlindingForce]

The key to the news is not watch cable news stations. All it is are two people bickering back and forth accomplishing nothing. It's not news...it's 24 hour commentary.

Fox news is very republican and CNN is very democrat. Any person who says otherwise needs to seriously "watch" what they are seeing.

Watch your local news on the standard 1 - 13 stations and you'll learn a hell of alot more. I tend to do that and or if I can't get to a tv, such as at work, I look at google news where they give you headlines and list the sites they come from. You have to get your information from more than one source.

You also have to understand every single one of these presidential commericals is bias. Kerry may have voted something down but that's all they say. They don't talk about the billions of dollars of golden toilets tacked onto that bill. If Bush were to do that, and he has, then it would have been perfectly fine to vote it down.

I have to go for lunch but really quick. Don't confuse faith with the institution. Somebody said they tried church and it wasn't for them. Read the bible. That's fine. To each his own but just realize they are a group of stories to teach you a lesson. To be a good person. It's not, in my eyes, and exact history and I think the church is saying this on some level at the lower level.

and as far as third party choices. Well I haven't liked what I've seen and I don't think right now 3rd party is the way to go. That is a whole spectrum of views for another time. So to me...yes it is throwing my vote away. But that's my view of this election. Not 3rd parties in general. Two different things.

Anyway...gotta go. If only Fox and CNN talked this much. We might actually know what's going on.


UPDATED: Just found this. Disgusting.
http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story. ... 1029MAC101

[Phil]

Thanks for the Political Compass link, biocreep, that was neat.
I was surprised to find myself at dead center on the L-R scale, and slightly above on the Authoritarian side.

Hmm. I think I need to research the questions more, to make sure I'm putting the best answers. And they don't claim the test to be 100% accurate, anyway.
I don't mind being center, although in life in general I am usually more on the right. The authoritarian thing throws me, though, because I certainly don't think the government should control our lives. Maybe the test's definition and mine aren't quite the same.

(PS - we live in a free country because of wars fought and won for justice and good. Someone saying they support a particular war does not mean that they are saying "Yippee! I adore it when people get killed and maimed!") Of course, if someone doesn't agree that this is a free country, and that winning those wars was a good thing, we ain't singin' the same song, pardner.

[Kazu]

So to me being a “flip flopper” isn’t a bad thing. People shouldn’t be treated as being a bad leader because they change their opinion as NEW information and facts come to the surface. They should evolve and grow. Not stick to old speculation and a need to be proven right.

Dave, before anyone jumps on this, I want to say that I do think "flip-flopping" is a bad thing, and a big part of why I was firmly on the fence. This is actually the biggest reason why I felt the need to speak up...

After doing only a tiny bit of research, I began to realize that the Bush/Cheney "flip-flop" claim doesn't hold much water. Kerry's stance has always been firm, but firmly at an "advance, but with caution" stance. Whenever he makes a decision to spend "for" defense, he is careful to include a disclaimer stating that the spending needs to be used wisely. When the money is used poorly, Kerry backs up his disclaimer by not continuing to support that movement. This is something Kerry has been consistent with, going right back to his volunteering to go to war in Vietnam despite feeling opposed, then deducing that it was a mistake and fighting against it. http://www.factcheck.org/article147.html I also realized that the man isn't quite that weak on defense, and is a far cry from being the "most liberal man in the Senate". http://www.factcheck.org/article284.html

This is right about the time I went from looking for the "lesser of two evils" to being a supporter. I realized that the Bush/Cheney campaign were having such a hard time finding anything to tarnish the man with, that this "flip-flop" issue was all that they had to work on. Beyond that, they simply threw more labels around and it confused everyone. The most amazing thing is that it's been working. They say it so often and with such ferocity, I almost start believing it again. Amy had already pointed us to a nice PBS Frontline documentary earlier in this thread. It's non-partisan and does a good job of shedding a positive light on both candidates. I highly recommend everyone watch it. It's PBS, guys. This is good. I actually now have a higher opinion of George W. Bush because of it, but I also realize why he is not the right man to be in charge. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... 2004/view/

So who'll be the better President for the War on Terror? We will actually never know. But whoever does get elected will fight it no matter what. It is the biggest issue for voters and citizens of the United States right now. For either one of these candidates, backing down on it is not an option.


http://www.boltcity.net/forum/viewtopic ... 8153#38153

[Dave]

Hmm, to move this into a more constructive and neutral discussion, I wanted to ask a serious question to all sides. It's a pretty heavy one...

How do the beliefs and teachings of your mentors or guides affect the way you view this year's election? By this I mean the teachings of your heroes, your pastors, your teachers, your parents, etc. In fact, let's include what your friends and acquaintances talk about around you and anything else in your environment. I think it's just interesting to see what it is that formulates these strong beliefs, especially since most people have begun to think very seriously about their lives after the 9/11 tragedy. I know I did. It might be a good opportunity for us to analyze that aspect of it, since we seem to be touching on the subject of influences quite a lot in this thread.

Background:
I was born 1981 and raised in So-Cal. As far back as I can remember I have always wanted to draw. Grandparents raised me and my twin sister as Catholics up until 2nd grade. Lived with my mom from 3rd grade through high school. Mom and Dad never married and don't speak to or about each other to this day. Had a pretty rough life up to about mid-high school then things started to mellow out. Decided to be a real Born Again Christian around then. I still hold to my Roman Catholic heritage though, but I believe that it can go deeper than just the rituals and the traditions to a real personal relationship with God which is what we're all created for. That was a major turning point in my life and I was affected greatly by that decision. I haven't held to the straight and narrow as much as I should or could in recent years, but that's my fault. I got my girlfriend pregnant and married her. Thank God I got hooked up as an intern at a graphic design firm and have been in the industry for four years with no college. No college because mainly I have no money, but also I believe and C.S. Lewis said something like: "An education without morals only seems to make man a more clever devil". I see the higher education system riddled with liberal Godless philosophy that is motivated by rebellion and selfishness (but thats another rant altogether).

Now that I said that:
All of that motivates the way I view this election. I am influenced by Christ and the Christian world view- the Christian agenda. I believe that God wants my relationship with Him to positively affect all aspects of my life including my day to day and political choices. I believe we all will answer to God one day for what we did with His gift of life that He gave us. I believe that God gave us rules to live by for our own good and I want to live in a place where those rules are followed as closely as possible so I choose leaders who I think best accomplish that. Clearly, I'm not a political science major, but I see Bush as a good choice. Others may not agree with me, but please don't debate me.

Post why you see this election the way you do. And what influences that.

[agremar]

Amy had already pointed us to a nice PBS Frontline documentary earlier in this thread. It's non-partisan and does a good job of shedding a positive light on both candidates. I highly recommend everyone watch it. It's PBS, guys. This is good. I actually now have a higher opinion of George W. Bush because of it, but I also realize why he is not the right man to be in charge. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... 2004/view/

I caught this too and I really found it interesting. I think they also had a special on Rumsfeld, and it made me want to point out something very important I think a few people are missing: During an election it is very easy to get caught up by the personality (or lack thereof) of a president, and how their character is painted. However, for a lot of presidents, especially those past wwII, it's less the president and more the superior court and cabinent members, as well as party that counts. For instance, I really don't like Bush, but that's not the reason I'm not going to vote for him. What I disagree with is the character, tactics, and agenda of Rove,Rumsfeld, Cheney, and Wolfowitz. Frankly, these are the people running the country at the moment. They are also the ones formulating military plans that goes against the direct advice of the military. Rumsfeld took over the pentagon and had no regard for the actual input of individuals like Powell, as well as people who have direct training and experience. I may not like what Powell has had to say, but he advised how they should conduct the war, and argued with them, but they ignored him--yet, since he is loyal to the platform, he basically put his neck on the line just because the platform wouldn't back down from their stance, and did what they wanted him to.

Arrg, enough of that. Anyways, Kazu's right, we need to get away from bashing each other and creating a mirror of what's going on in the election. As for me, I grew up in Oregon then moved to California during the 4th grade. I would say my family is very conservative, and religious (I have missionaries in the family). While I understand their point of view, I am very different. I'm the first person in my family to finish college, and I went to NY to get my Ph.D. in Art History and Philosophy, then came back to CA to pay off all my debt . I've always been an avid fan of comics and visual storytelling and did my dissertation work on them, not to mention I've been drawing for a while and am interested, at some point, in finally getting a comic of my own up. Even though I'm a literary fanatic, and this has broadened my horizons remarkably, I would say that I learned quite a bit above and beyond, especially in terms of politics through, um 8 years of university pain. Without this education I probably would not have had the openness nor, perhaps, the necessary tools to read between the lines and think critically of my own actions, others actions, and the information streaming from all angles. In particular, having a knowledge of history, and having tons of exposure to social, cultural and gender studies (and how close minded so many people can be) my politics have pointed me on a much more liberal slant than I would have been-- pretty much the opposite of my entire family. Yet, for all my "personal" politics, I've really only grown concerned about the wider world during the reign of the current administration. I could say some of the reasons, but that would just be pursuing the course I think Kazu is wise in guiding us away from. I vote BoltCity all the way

[Jason C-M]

please don't debate me.

Uh, Dave? This is a discussion thread, and a kind of heated one. If you don't want to debate your position, this may not be the place to post it.

I also really take issue with the "I see the higher education system riddled with liberal Godless philosophy that is motivated by rebellion and selfishness" statement since I see much good coming out of the higher education system, especially in the civil rights arena.

[Kazu]

Jason, I also think this is not the place to be debating religion. I wanted to bring up the issue as a means of understanding where everyone is coming from, not spark a heated debate.

By the way, thanks for posting that Dave. Those are very personal comments that are liable to come under much fire in a forum like this, but I'm glad you made them anyway.

Back to the education thing > Not all classes, not all schools are effective. In fact, my motto was "school gets in the way of my education" until I finally met a few teachers who changed all that late in High School, and in college. It works on the individual level and not the systemic level.

[Guest]

please don't debate me.

Uh, Dave? This is a discussion thread, and a kind of heated one. If you don't want to debate your position, this may not be the place to post it.

I also really take issue with the "I see the higher education system riddled with liberal Godless philosophy that is motivated by rebellion and selfishness" statement since I see much good coming out of the higher education system, especially in the civil rights arena.

Jason, I know it's a discussion thread and kinda a heated one. If you want to debate my views, fine, but that's not why I posted them. I simply stated what influenced my view of this election like Kazu asked all of us to do. I did add a few personal (maybe religious) comments but only to illustrate my view not to stir up trouble or spark a religious debate. My faith plays a big part in my view of things. I have no separation of my political views and the views of my faith. I tried to communicate that.

I'm sorry that you disagree with me on the higher education bit, but it's how I see it. I do agree that good does come out of it: people get skills and get better paying jobs among other benefits, but I don't see higher education as a neccessity for improved civil rights. And not all civil rights are right in my opinion.

I hope you understand I meant no offense by my views, but if offense was taken I am not sorry for it. I respect your views as yours and you are entitled to them, but I have mine and I hold to them as you hold to yours.

dave

[deantrippe]

*Long post, sorry!*

Also also, actual debates aren't arguments, despite the tendency for these talks to breakdown into them. Thanks for keeping things civil, Kaz.

The political compass thing was pretty neat, though I think, a bit simple. I came out a good ways into the left, AND on the libertarian side.

BG Info: I'm the product of a teenage pregnancy. My grandmother urged my 15-year-old mom to abort me. I'm pretty glad my mom didn't. I was raised in greater Atlanta on welfare with my sister, and after our parents; divorce and later our mom's remarriage, we were adopted into my stepfather's family, and now live on a farm in rural North Georgia. We pretty much look like a nuclear family, now, despite the difficulties in getting here.

I grew up in church but thought it was all bogus, considering myself an atheist until 15 or so when I began to see the evidence for God all around me. Then I realized after researching the major world religions that the kind of beliefs I really wanted--selfless, charitable, loving, kind (thanks, Spider-Man)--was what Christ was all about, despite public figures of Christians who were quite often idiots with financial and social agendas. So maybe behind these jokers was something real.

For me "religion" is a list of rules and beliefs and codes and such. That's all well and good if you like that, but I'm not a religious person. I just live from my heart and my mind, the tools God gave me.

People from art school (generally uncharitable but nice agnostic/atheists) tend to think I'm "right-leaning" because I believe in God and Moral Truth (oooh, capitals), and people from church (generally charitable but unkind believers) tend to think I'm "left-leaning" because I tend to be a voice of concern amongst such right-wingers (and I like vegetarian food...haha).

Personally, if my views were satisfying either of those groups, THEN I'd be worried.

And that's how I became a non-partisan liberal Christian...or whatever. Labels are stupid. I'm just a guy named Dean. I like Spongebob and history books. I like Batman and Owly. I like South Park and Jon Stewart. I like tofu and Burger King. I'm obviously not seeking some kinda label, and I'm surprised that some people live their whole lives constricted by the damn things.

I tend to think that if you don't have friends that you respect who disagree with you...then you don't know what you think anyway. My FAVORITE (yeah I'm talking about you, Ben) people to talk to are sensible people who don't share all my views.

[shadi]

some background on what (may or may not have) influenced me:

my parents are palestinian, born and raised in nazareth. when my father was a teen, he was shot in the foot and his friend in the chest by israeli soldiers. when applying for college, he was denied acceptance because he wanted to study electrical engineering and it is considered a 'security risk' for a palestinian to study such things. so he applied for 5 years and eventually got accepted to a university in kentucky with a full ride, and moved to the U.S. without hesitation. after a couple visits back home, he met and married my mother who worked at city hall in nazareth. they moved to los angeles. she was (and remains) a strong-willed, stubborn, determined, independent and smart (though somewhat close-minded) woman. my father is unbelievably easy-going, smart and logical (and way more open-minded).

my father studied drafting and architectural drawing and taught the same subject for about 30 years at a local high school. my mother worked for various airlines for almost the same length of time at LAX.

i went to a catholic school for 8 years and pretty much ignored the religious aspects - i simply did not feel drawn to it at all. i went to church because we had to, prayed because we had to, etc. i didn't get much out of it, though i am an extremely kind person with a high level of personal integrity. i can't stand making anyone upset, so maybe a little of that comes from there. i was definitely drawn to math and science, and computers (began on an amiga 500, to apple classics, to power macs, to pcs). i have been drawing pretty much since i was born.

public high school was extremely refreshing. the students were way more diverse in personalities and opinions than the catholic school and this diversity was healthy. i picked up the guitar and it has battled with my drawing pencil for my time ever since...

it was during high school that i began to take an interest in politics, though this was mostly personal and i kept to myself.

i went to ucsb where i met kazu and company, drawing for the daily nexus. opinions at ucsb were much more open, though the demographics are very very narrow. it wasn't as diverse as high school...

in college i began to become addicted to alternative news sources and digging up facts that aren't shown in mainstream news. my brother is extremely informed / passionate about politics and has definitely had a major influence in my attitude. the biggest influence he has had though, is to simply keep yourself informed, do your own research and not just take what you hear as fact. my longtime girlfriend shares similar concerns and has definitely been receptive to my rants, and we can have meaningful discussions and debates about politics, religion, and the world. i began to become deeply saddened by the state of affairs in the world, the repression, and the sparkly-clean facade of american pop culture. if i think about what is going on in the rest of the world, i can bring myself to cry and i try not to do this too much.

i find it funny that religious people seem to be pro-bush... if i remember anything, its that one of the commandments was "thou shall not kill." seems pretty clear to me... i wonder if jesus would support the iraq war? i bet he'd say "go troops!"

to sum it up:
i'm an independent thinker... i pick up what makes sense to me. while i was heavily surrounded by religion, i am very non-religious. this doesn't mean i'm a bad person (voted "most friendly" in high school). i just try to be good and that's that. i have become increasingly aware / involved in politics in the last 6-7 years and this is due to a result in my parents' history, my own urge to hunt down facts / absorb information, and some influence from friends.

[deantrippe]

i find it funny that religious people seem to be pro-bush... if i remember anything, its that one of the commandments was "thou shall not kill."

"Do not commit murder." Kill and murder are two different words in Hebrew, the language the text you're quoting was written in. The law of Moses had the death penalty.

*I'm NOT debating religion or the death penalty, just correcting a common misconception.*

[Guest]

thanks for the clarification dryponder...as you can see, that's about how much i paid attention to religion while going to a religious school

although i do think its clear that bush is responsible for both killing and murdering, no matter how organized and professionally done it may seem.