The ELECTION thread...

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Who should be in the White House?

Kerry/Edwards
39
57%
Bush/Cheney
9
13%
Nader/Camejo
5
7%
Clive/Cabbage
12
17%
none
4
6%
 
Total votes: 69

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Post by hemigoblin » Thu Oct 28, 2004 9:48 pm

:shock:
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Post by MWW » Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:04 pm

Sigh. I went to the trouble of registering for these forums and didn't think to log in. The long rant on Iraq was me.

I also feel the need to put it into context: I am mad at George W. Bush at the moment for personal reasons: He made me late to work today and I got lectured. The street where I work was closed because he was doing a rally three blocks over. It seems most inconsiderate to close down busy road ways just to make yourself feel important.

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Post by Guest » Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:32 am

Curiousity? If there is already *enough* death and destruction in the world, what do you do about it?

Two choices usually.

A popular Movement, or, An Irresistable Force.

Thats how a position or an agenda takes places, Popular Movement, or Force.
SO, death and destruction. Shit, we've had that since the dawn of time. It's nothing new. Human beings have maiming and killling eachother down to a science. What do we do about it?

I'd say Religion, but then people would claim I'm a bigot/facist/fanatic.

I'd say Education, but the human race seems to have a collective learning disability when it comes to this.


I love my country personally, but we have rarely done ANYTHING that wasn't out of self interest. I think our whole Humanitarian programs are out of subconcious national guilt... We throw money at problems rather then facing them. What the hell are we supposed to do about AID's in Africa, ya know? Chances are, if you have AIDs, masturbate! Or sleep with another who has already contracted it, don't spread it around... Theres an answer for ya. Better yet, keep it in your pants. See, that's a hard answer right there. Is it the right answer? Dunno. Is it politically incorrect? Yes. But It'd work.

Almost all wars are politically motivated and in the self-interest of the nations involved. I'm starting to believe Wars are amoral, they have costs, and they have results. People on the other hand... Shit, I'm more then happy to condemn a man. I'd sooner judge a man then a war, at least a war gets stuff done in the world. In a roundabout way War gets the job done.


So what does this come back to...

Probably this, Life is Hard. It's our lot to face tough times, maybe we'll learn from it, maybe we'll get our asses handed back to us... Frankly, it will still be hard. There ARE people who want us dead. Then there are people who want to be left alone... But they also want to kill other people. Frankly, the worlds a whole fuster cluck of people wanting to be ignored by the bigger pricks while picking on the littler pricks. Everyone has someone they piss off, and everyone else wants a peice of it.

We got to do something right? Hell, we're all mortal, we're going to die anyway... I'd rather die in that bastards country then my own. I mean, hell, what do you do?

The religious conservatives just want to be left alone, occasionally they like to chew your ass out and ride around on really tall horses.

The homosexual activists just want to walk openly in the streets. (generality mind you, have you seen those parades... What I mean is, they want to be noticed and have no one look at them funny, cept they ARE going to be looked at funny because many people, bigot or no, are heterosexual and find the same sex rather repulsive... So ya, a hetero WILL gawk at to homosexuals participating in some PDA... The question is will the Hetero take a bat to em? Or do we legislate a few laws to outlaw gawking... Hell, I dunno. Shit, why the hell don't we ALL just leave eachother alone. If theres nothing wrong with homosexuality then theres nothing wrong with gawking.)

Religious fanatics just want you all to believe like they do, or uhm, not believe anything at all... It's kinda difficult to believe anything when your dead.

Equal Rights groups just want those they represent to be treated like God's... I mean honestly, I live in Vegas, I don't see much racism roundabouts here, so I often have to wonder if it still exists. I mean, people claim it does, and it prolly does. I don't have anything against any race... However I do have something against STUPID people of any creed or color. If you refuse to speak in a normal fashion, you're not going to get far in life. I don't give a damn if its cultural or not. If you refuse to wear clothes that fit you properly and have at lease some classy/normal appearance to em, you're likely not going to get far. Hell, I have no problem with opressing STUPID people... I'm one of em, I'd smarten up damn quick if someone got on my ass for being an idiot.

Hell, racism was brought about by stupid people. It's pretty ignorant to think, " He's got two hands, two eyes, a nose, a mouth, two feet, legs, a body, ears, and he's practically just like me... But this muthafugga is purple! Shit man, grapes are purple, I hate grapes! This guy is a friggin fruit! He's such a fruit, this mutha fugga is gonna love pickin my grapes... He'll fricken get off on it... Hell, why havem pick my grapes, lets just strangle em with the vine, purple mofo would look good up gains't that."




So what the hell am I getting at? Not a clue. We've got problems. It has little to do with America, and it has little to do with Bush, Kerry, Nader, Cheney, Edwards...

Jeez, people expect the President to make the sun rise and set...

So, politics ain't likely the answer. Religion had a good go of it, Judaism got a severe overhaul with Christianity, and that would have been sittin pretty if the Apostle's hadn't gotten killed. So is Religion out? Probably not, still a contender, and every new incarnation has an effect...

But when we get right down to it? What the hell do we do?
I come back to, Popular Movement, or Unstoppable Force. Before we choose which one, we have to decide what we are going up against... Pop Movement, or Unstoppable force...

You know what? Alchohol's the answer. Cheers.

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Post by neil » Fri Oct 29, 2004 2:07 am

Guest wrote:What I mean is, they want to be noticed and have no one look at them funny, cept they ARE going to be looked at funny because many people, bigot or no, are heterosexual and find the same sex rather repulsive... So ya, a hetero WILL gawk at to homosexuals participating in some PDA... The question is will the Hetero take a bat to em?
Wow, do you feel the hatred-filled urge to take a bat to an interracial heterosexual couple as well? Because you know, that was just as widely despised and outlawed a few decades ago, and it seemed only natural for people to think that way at the time. Anybody who wants to beat someone for being gay, or for whatever they are, whether they act on it or not, is definitely a bigot, though I'd use worse language to describe him or her.

I think Jake (agent44) excellently summarizes the pro-Bush feeling, and Chris is right on with the anti-Bush argument. And that's the actual topic of this thread by the way, not some lame bar-room analysis of the human condition.

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Post by Kazu » Fri Oct 29, 2004 4:40 am

Hmm, to move this into a more constructive and neutral discussion, I wanted to ask a serious question to all sides. It's a pretty heavy one...

How do the beliefs and teachings of your mentors or guides affect the way you view this year's election? By this I mean the teachings of your heroes, your pastors, your teachers, your parents, etc. In fact, let's include what your friends and acquaintances talk about around you and anything else in your environment. I think it's just interesting to see what it is that formulates these strong beliefs, especially since most people have begun to think very seriously about their lives after the 9/11 tragedy. I know I did. It might be a good opportunity for us to analyze that aspect of it, since we seem to be touching on the subject of influences quite a lot in this thread.

Here's my background, just so you all know where I'm coming from. I'll try to keep it short, although I know I won't. I've also been meaning to talk a little about my family history, since it's quite interesting, so I'll add a little bit about that as well...

I was born in Tokyo, Japan in 1978, as Kazuhiro Hiraishi, the first son of a wealthy, highly conservative family that ran a clothing manufacturing company on my father's side, and to another successful, much more liberal family from the big city on my mother's side. My grandfather (mother's side) was born in New York, and spent the early part of his life in Queens, where my great grandfather had opened a general store in 1907. My mother was also raised in New York, and like my grandfather, went to college at Keio University in Japan, where she met my father, married, and went to live with him and his family near the clothing factory on the outskirts of Tokyo, where they all worked. After having two sons, the marriage came to a tumultuous end when my brother was born with a slight cosmetic birth defect, and my mother refused to put him up for adoption as my father's family insisted she do. At 26, she divorced my father and his family, and then immigrated to California in the early 1980's. I have not seen or heard from my father ever since.

My immediate family did not come here for any political reasons outside of family conflicts, and definitely not for financial gain, as we have gone from a highly successful family in Japan to a struggling middle class family in the States. I think this makes us a bit of an anomaly out here. My English is pretty good since my mother's side had spent so much of their lives in and around western culture. On this side of the family I had a great-grandmother who taught English, and a great-grandfather who was a Methodist minister. Both of whom were Japanese.

The funny thing is I ended up being perhaps the most conservative of my immediate family. Compared to the lively, liberal bunch that surrounded me growing up, I was the most serious-minded one. My mom and stepdad raised me far away from the church, adamant about keeping religion out of the household, and I have been the only one that has shown any interest in it. Some days, I wish I had grown up going to church like so many of my friends, but perhaps that's just the "grass is greener" thing talking. So, over the course of my life, I have been stuck between conservative and liberal ideologies for the entire course of it, and this conflict has informed almost every aspect of it as well. I have chosen a decidedly liberal career, but I take it very seriously, following a conservative path. My family raised me in a very non-religious fashion, yet most of my friends growing up were devout Christians (or born-again Christians), Mormons, and Jews. It is the teachings of my professors in college (decidedly liberal, correct?), my close friends made attending college, and my close friends I have now that inform my opinions the most. I do not watch TV, and I am careful about controlling what media I decide to ingest. I am also careful about the people I associate with, since as it can clearly be seen here, I am fully aware of how influential they can be on me. Anyway, to stop going on like this - and I don't know what the heck I'm doing here blabbering so much - I want to just say that this is where I come from, plain and simple. This mixed up jumbled life is what informs my opinions no matter what, and has resulted in dropping me a bit left but real close to the center. I was just curious what other people's backgrounds were, because that's what interests me most now about this thread. (Ah! My agenda!) :wink:

No more bashing on either side. Like others have said, no one is going to change anyone's opinions here, so it's simply a waste of time. Talking about personal influences and family history - I think this is constructive...
Last edited by Kazu on Fri Oct 29, 2004 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Phil C » Fri Oct 29, 2004 5:42 am

Great post, Kazu. Thank you for your calmness, rationality, and graciousness. You've inspired me to speak up in this thread. 8)

Which I will do later. :P


(P.S. - I haven't done any work. Too tired. Just dozed a bit...) :x

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Post by Monk » Fri Oct 29, 2004 6:08 am

"And tonight's debate will be moderated by Kazu Kibuishi, comic artist and rational mediator. I'd like to welcome our candidates to the University of California - Santa Barbara; okay, let's get started."

The biggest issue for me is that people need to get over this partisan political bickering and inform themselves. If you're going to have an opinion, you owe it to yourself and the candidates to know why you feel the way you do, rather than just giving in to political spin. Neither side is even remotely close to being totally correct, so to simply tow the party line is folly.
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Post by neil » Fri Oct 29, 2004 6:52 am

Community and family background certainly shape a lot of values, but I think it's pretty hard to generalize political ideas from them; people in the same families can obviously have really different viewpoints. I was talking to Amy earlier, and it seems pretty clear that where people get their information is a big factor.

I've never been a big fan of war and imposed suffering; I think that just goes to the whole truth seeking nature that Kazu raised. I didn't have very complicated political ideas though, until high school when I started listening to punk rock and reading books like A People's History of the United States by Howard Zinn, and stuff by Noam Chomsky when I was in college. It became pretty much clear, from the opposition to people's movements and especially the history of U.S. foreign policy, that this country does not represent its supposed ideals at all. I never thought of it as a lost cause though, and there's so much great stuff about our culture; I think opening your mind to this kind of information is actually really patriotic. You can't really do any good if you act like nothing's wrong... I suppose that's what motivated my political beliefs for most of my formative years.

I haven't been quite so much of a radical anarchist in my post graduate years... I guess I have more of an agnostic take on things. And I listen to a lot more acoustic shoegazer music instead of punk rock... Hehe. I think I have a really open mind, but I'll admit that I still don't totally understand the conservative viewpoint. I don't understand what's being "conserved" when ideas like basic human rights are controverted. And Kazu, what does it mean that you're taking a "conservative" path in your "liberal" career? It often seems to me that the right/center/left spectrum is itself kind of meaningless and in need of serious deconstruction. It seems to help the hegemony maintain a status quo in the supposed "center" though.
Last edited by neil on Fri Oct 29, 2004 7:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by BlindingForce » Fri Oct 29, 2004 6:58 am

I'll try to keep mine short as well but really great post Kazu and I can relate although we come from different naitonalities.

Growning up I made my first communion and my confirmation. I'm a proud catholic. I'm proud of my faith although I'm not in total agreement with the church. But that can be said for anything. But growing up I never went to church every week. We rarely went if at all. Sure we celebrated Christmas and Easter but the religious themes were always put on the backburner giving way more so towards the secular Santa Claus and Easter Bunny. My parents aren't bad people. They just aren't church going people. But now ever since I met my soon to be wife I've gone to church every week for the pat 4+ years. I've missed about twice and that might have been because of a move to a school dorm and etc. I'm not perfect and I don't claim to be. I supported this war in the beginning and It's my firm belief sadam is right up there with Hitler. THe man gassed his own people and it's because of that the UN should have taken him out of power years ago.

The UN at this moment means nothing. Nothing at all at least in those kinds of things. It's a political game and nothing more.

So I supported the war because we were told such and such. We were going in to get the man responsible in Afgansistan(sp?). We went in and we took out the Taliban freeing, if you can call it that, countless. Alot are better off, some not so much, but at least now for the most part they can speak their minds and not have to live in a hole under their house. Or was that man in Iraq?

And then we were told Iraq had WMD. Based on such and such. Ok I was with that too. One of my friends was in that bad desert storm in the beginning. Sometimes he didn't think he was coming home it was so bad.

So based on my faith, what I know to be right, and how I know others should be treated I back that up. Then we just got lie after lie. You see the men and woman in the armed forces right now are volunteers. I value life very highly. I can't fathom how a piece of land can be worth more than a human life. But to draft people to go in, in a war of lies, in a free country. That is illegal and I won't be apart of it. Because of my faith I will not be apart of it. Most people know the basis of catholocism and I'm not an expert but I can do my best to explain what I know if wanted.

Yes there are people out there who want to kill us. Everyone has an agenda. So what's the right way? Is it going in and killing them first? It's an excuse. A big excuse.

At a certain point in history there's going to be a point where we're all going to have to look inside and see where we stand. Far beyond elections. We're going to have to look the person next to us in the eye and really think about how we see them.

So like Kazu I came from one way of life and I did a complete 180. Spiritually, Politically, and Mentally. Not because a person told me to. Not because the church told me to. But it's because treating another human being, animal, etc. etc. with respect and love is just the right thing to do. THen we can go and draw our comics, design our books, and live our lives. We don't have to worry about dying for no reason. You might think I'm naive or think...well reality is this. Yes I know what reality is but our generation are the ones that can change the entire world. It starts with this election but it goes far far beyond that.

That is generally where I'm coming from and again my posts are too long. But thank you. This is the first time I've written this down publicly and I intend on doing it more.
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Post by BlindingForce » Fri Oct 29, 2004 7:16 am

Just FYI everyone. I got one of those ballot mailers the other day and along with Bush/Cheney and Kerry/Edwards there are 7 other different parties/candidate teams running.

If you'd like me to post names later just let me know. I'm moving into a new apartment this weekend and won't have internet until full well after the election. DSL takes two weeks to check the lines. I'll have it at work but I'll miss mostly everything.

Just let me know. Maybe you can use the weekend to do a little last minute research. Nader might not apply!
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Post by JonS » Fri Oct 29, 2004 7:23 am

I was born and raised in Texas, and still live here for now. I think I'll always be a Texan, deep down. (Believe it or not, being a texan isn't about owning 10 guns and a ranch) I have a Buddhist father from thailand and a catholic mother from the phillippines. I grew up in a neighborhood with mostly asians and blacks, went to a predominantly white catholic high school, and now live in San Antonio, which is about 60% hispanic. So if I've learned anything in regards to politics from my upbringing, if you put current events into context, it means something different to everybody. GW and Kerry represent different things to people.

I really don't believe much in Presidential politics, and the term 'grassroots' I think has become something more commonly alluded to when top politicians get involved with the local communities, though some still really think of it as any type of active social politicking, which I think we could use more of.

After years of watching the pointless proceedings on cspan, and seeing the same commentary from all the latest viacom companies you get the feeling that things are never going to be shown to you straightforward, ever.

So sometimes it's nice to go out and find it yourself. I think voting and putting your say into your local reps that control your state's money, judges that decide the social status quo in your community, constables that keep you safe (or try to), the chamber of commerce that influences the wellbeing of your favorite local businesses, etc...the ability to do all that is what's really great about this country. not necessarily the 2-man,6-media company circus known as the presidential elections. that's just me, though. All this stuff eventually trickles up to the right places in washington, but it's really power in numbers, coming from the bottom.

So anyway, Vote Alan Keyes for Illinois state senate!

I don't live anywhere remotely near there, but I think he's always had a compassionate commitment to the issues and alot of people give him flack because rarely does a politician ask so much from people, though alot of people WANT to agree with him. He really is one of the few politicians I admire. And the man can deliver a speech like jesse jackson, except you know, with clarity and logic behind it.
Last edited by JonS on Fri Oct 29, 2004 8:18 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Jason C-M » Fri Oct 29, 2004 7:28 am

agent44 wrote:For me the the single most important issue right now is: Which man is better equipped to run the global war on terrorism?
Couldn't agree more. Which is why I'm voting for John Kerry.
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Post by Mr Blue Sky » Fri Oct 29, 2004 8:11 am

As far as backgrounds goes, my mom is now an elementary teacher and my father a small boss of the sanitaries in a few public hospital. My family on my father's side are verry conservative village people, on my mother's side, my grandfather was a verry active syndicalist who did a lot of things that weren't all happy happy. My father has a bacheloreat in visual arts and both of my parents used to be part of the Worker's Communist Party in Quebec, altough they now have a verry critic point of view on the whole leftish movement in Quebec. There is still a lot of stuff they don't want to talk about...

I grew-up away from any religion in a verry "liberal" environment (that word has a completely different meaning around here). Altough I disagree with my parents on a few subjects, like the whole french everywhere thing and stuff, I have more or less the same ideals as them in a less radical way.

I tried religion (catholic), I tried reading the bible, but I found it badly written, quite boring and unninteresting. The church's views on many subjects are far from my own. I'm currently agnostic, and I wonder if there is a God what the hell he/she/it would think of what we have done with the whole damn planet...

I tried looking at the rightish point of view too, but I couldn't get myself to understand most of it how two men who love one another in the same way heterosexuals do are wrong, I couldn't get myself to understand why it was so important to profit the almighty middle class (and more importantly the upper class) by trying to make the poor even poorer. I tried looking positively at privatisation, but I can't get myself to accept that hospitals or schools were to be given in the hands of corporations witch are compeled by law to pursue self-interest and not to make any decision that can lower the bottom line in favor of any social benefit.

oops, got a bit in unrelated ranting...

Anyway, my parents and friends are mostly "liberals" and this is affecting my point of view and my oppinion for sure.

That's for the background...
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Post by Kazu » Fri Oct 29, 2004 8:12 am

Neil wrote:And Kazu, what does it mean that you're taking a "conservative" path in your "liberal" career? It often seems to me that the right/center/left spectrum is itself kind of meaningless and in need of serious deconstruction. It seems to help the hegemony maintain a status quo in the supposed "center" though.
I just mean that I take a very conservative (by definition and not by label) approach to the way I go about things, even as people around me label me a bohemian or whatnot because of my career path. Despite what it looks like, everything I do is planned pretty carefully, and I even try to work the more chaotic elements in my life to my advantage. This being the case, I see Kerry being the more conservative (by definition and not by label) candidate, which is why I think he's a better choice right now.

Also, (with you being one of the friends that I think positively influence me a great deal) I agree with you about the deconstruction of the spectrum. Looking at the current election, it really is hard to tell what any of these words mean any more. I should have been more careful in using those words...
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Post by Jason C-M » Fri Oct 29, 2004 8:39 am

Neil wrote:It often seems to me that the right/center/left spectrum is itself kind of meaningless and in need of serious deconstruction. It seems to help the hegemony maintain a status quo in the supposed "center" though.
One of my least favorite aspects of this is in journalism, where they air a republican spokesperson's view, than a democratic spokesperson's view, and then their done. They've done their job, they've presented "both sides." As if any issue only has two sides, and as if truth or fact are to be found by averaging the Democratic and Republican viewpoints.

Backing up to third parties, in the more local and regional level, third parties can carry a lot of weight and get a lot done. Third parties haven't been able to win a presidential election in a long time, but remember that both the Republican and the Democratic parties where once "third parties."
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