The ELECTION thread...

General Discussion

Who should be in the White House?

Kerry/Edwards
39
57%
Bush/Cheney
9
13%
Nader/Camejo
5
7%
Clive/Cabbage
12
17%
none
4
6%
 
Total votes: 69

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Monk
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Post by Monk » Thu Oct 28, 2004 8:03 am

No, no real third parties to speak of at any time. But will someone please explain to me how the third parties operating in America AREN'T just enlightened interest groups with figureheads as candidates? I don't want to solely define this country as two-party, but that's the way the system works. You have your green party and your Nader, your Libertarians and Socialists, whatever. To me they seem like either a political Sierra Club (Greens), a megalomaniacal egoist with too much time and money and no plan other than corporate conspiracy theory (Nader), or moderately-radical offshoots of major-party politics.

I'm not trying to be argumentative; I really would like to understand how they're so different.
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frak
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my 2 cents

Post by frak » Thu Oct 28, 2004 8:47 am

I see eye to eye with Bush on most of the, in my opinion,
important matters. He will be getting my vote as of Tuesday.

I just don't trust Kerry, he tells us what we want to hear...which is
kinda cool. But when two people want conflicting things, what happens
then. Some one is going ot get the short end of the stick. But whom?
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Mr Blue Sky
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Post by Mr Blue Sky » Thu Oct 28, 2004 9:23 am

The problem with having only two parties is that they don't promote ideologies anymore but they instead just try to be "better" governement, meaning it's the same ideas over and over and nothing new can come.

Plus now americans have only right parties (don't pretend democrats are acting left-wingned). I'm in favor of freedom of speech and ideology, now americans have to choose between only two views of what could happen (witch are mostly similar).

I don,t know how Nader is and I don,t care, but he does bring something new to the political map, and that's already something.
how the third parties operating in America AREN'T just enlightened interest groups with figureheads as candidates
Explain to me how republicans or democrats AREN'T just enlighten (or more likely elitist) interest groups with figureheads as candidates?

And the "corporate conspiracy" theory isn't that far from the truth, a major lobyist whose name I forgot (I can bring you the actual quote and stuff later if you want) said that corporations are PARTNERS with the governement.

Consider the word partner and all it actually means...

I'm not saying that voting Kerry or Bush is futile, I'm just saying it won't change much either way.

Personally I really hate Bush's WAY of aacting, but I know Kerry is going to do the same thing, exept he won't be as hated by the rest of the world for doing so.
"Allez hop! Un peu d'sincérité!
Le Monde est à pleurer!"

-J.L.

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Mr Blue Sky
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Post by Mr Blue Sky » Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:07 am

We rule the world? We HELP every nation in need, whenever they need it. Thanks to the UNITED STATES, mothers in Iraq won't ever again have to watch their babies taken from their arms and thrown against a concrete wall like a rag doll.
Sorry for the double post, but I just found THIS witch I find laugh-out-loud funny.

Do you call help droping thousands of missiles on a country, killing thousands of innocents in the way HELPING? And what the hell is going on with that whole "freeing countries?

Each times America directly or indirectly brought freedom to a country, it always turned to a pseudo-democratic dictatorship or downright religious fondamentalist theocracy. Talk about freedom!

Who put the Talibans there in the first place? Who helped Saddam Hussein seize power? Who assassinated the democraticaly elecxted socialist president of Chile to replace him for Augusto Pinochet?

For 9/11: Yes it was horrible, but GET OVER IT goddamn it! It happened three years ago and what's done is done. Terrorism is horrible, but it's always been there, exept never on american ground before. I don't think that the death of three thousand americans should be used as a pretext to kill tens of thousands of non-americans.

Also, if Bush was so concerned about protecting the world, why didn't he do anything about North-Korea? Why doesn't he tries to use his influence as the world's most powerful nation to calm things in India and Pakistan where the whole situation is actually prepating to blow-up in our face?

Admit it, worlds leaders, including Bush/Kerry/Clinton, don't give a shit about human rights or the health of the world.
"Allez hop! Un peu d'sincérité!
Le Monde est à pleurer!"

-J.L.

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Post by Alex Deligiannis » Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:38 am

Mr Blue Sky wrote:
We rule the world? We HELP every nation in need, whenever they need it. Thanks to the UNITED STATES, mothers in Iraq won't ever again have to watch their babies taken from their arms and thrown against a concrete wall like a rag doll.
Sorry for the double post, but I just found THIS witch I find laugh-out-loud funny.

Do you call help droping thousands of missiles on a country, killing thousands of innocents in the way HELPING? And what the hell is going on with that whole "freeing countries?

Each times America directly or indirectly brought freedom to a country, it always turned to a pseudo-democratic dictatorship or downright religious fondamentalist theocracy. Talk about freedom!

Who put the Talibans there in the first place? Who helped Saddam Hussein seize power? Who assassinated the democraticaly elecxted socialist president of Chile to replace him for Augusto Pinochet?

For 9/11: Yes it was horrible, but GET OVER IT goddamn it! It happened three years ago and what's done is done. Terrorism is horrible, but it's always been there, exept never on american ground before. I don't think that the death of three thousand americans should be used as a pretext to kill tens of thousands of non-americans.

Also, if Bush was so concerned about protecting the world, why didn't he do anything about North-Korea? Why doesn't he tries to use his influence as the world's most powerful nation to calm things in India and Pakistan where the whole situation is actually prepating to blow-up in our face?

Admit it, worlds leaders, including Bush/Kerry/Clinton, don't give a shit about human rights or the health of the world.
"Get over it?" That's arguably moronic. Tell it to anyone who lost somone that day. As for Iraq, we didn't bring murder and death to that place; people were getting killed there way before we came in, for nothing more than saying the wrong thing. They lived in terror of a "president" who would smile with them on one side, and then on the other side execute anyone who disagreed with him. Today they can vote, they can read what they want, listen to what music they like, participate in the world olympics, and rest easy knowing that the basic human rights they deserve are now attainable.

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Post by deantrippe » Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:58 am

Mr Blue Sky wrote:For 9/11: Yes it was horrible, but GET OVER IT goddamn it!
You just invalidated your "Take My Opinion Seriously" agreement.

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Mr Blue Sky
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Post by Mr Blue Sky » Thu Oct 28, 2004 11:03 am

Gotta go now, I'll come back t'night to explain my views on 9/11 and Irak more precisely.
"Allez hop! Un peu d'sincérité!
Le Monde est à pleurer!"

-J.L.

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Post by sideache » Thu Oct 28, 2004 11:08 am

My comment at this point will be apolitical, though I do have my convictions. I just want to respond to what I think has been the most irresponsible comment throughout this thread.

Mr Blue Sky says :

"For 9/11: Yes it was horrible, but GET OVER IT goddamn it! It happened three years ago and what's done is done."



It is completely insensitive to tell someone who lost a father or a mother or a brother or a sister "to get over it".

Tell those people that were horribly burned and have to look at those scars every day "to get over it".

Tell the firemen who see the photos of their buddies on plaques in the firehouse every time they go to work "to get over it".

Tell the daughter who will think about her father on her wedding day because she would love for him to walk her down the isle "to get over it".

My friend lost colleagues in the World Trade Center, His office was moved prior to the event. Tell him to get over his loss.

I sure won’t be that person to tell them "to get over it". I’ll help them get through it.

I hope Mr. Blue Sky that your words were clouded by passion. I hope if one of your friends struggles over the loss of someone, you don’t just say "get over it".

Why do we have movies like Schindler’s List and the Killing Fields, because we don’t just "get over it". How about helping people through it.
Last edited by sideache on Thu Oct 28, 2004 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

monk... guh.

Post by monk... guh. » Thu Oct 28, 2004 11:16 am

No, no... don't EVER say any Iraqis are "resting easy." There is no resting easy about what is seen as an occupying force instilling fear in the populace on one side, and a ragtag fundamentalist militia that will stop at nothing, will kill anyone to make their voices heard on the other side.

You need to look at it from their perspective, as much as we comfy Americans CAN look at it from any other perspective. One constant fear has been replaced by another constant fear. Sure there will be progress in the future, but not without the loss of TENS of THOUSANDS of lives in the process. How safe would you feel or how good would you feel about voting or democracy if every third house on your street was rubble and you didn't know when you'd have running water or power? I know I'm being severe, but don't make the mistake of thinking it's good or even much better than it was, at least right now.

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Post by chris » Thu Oct 28, 2004 12:01 pm

just my two cents:

BUSH: says what we all want to hear. is for "freedom" and "liberty". i'm for freedom and liberty! so i vote Bush right?

unfortunately the translation of slogan into practical real-world policy seems to have failed in every case:

slogan: TOUGH ON TERRORISM

real-world policy: invaded a country with no concrete link to AlQueda or the 911 terrorist attacks. meanwhile relations with Saudi Arabia (from which 16 of the 19 sept. 11th terrorists came and the major source of financial backing for the terrorist cause) continue as normal. now Iraq and Afghanistan (remember that place? yeah, me neither.) are spawning thousands of passionate anit-American terroists.

slogan: LOOKING OUT FOR THE AVERAGE AMERICAN

real-world policy: 98% of the last tax cut went to the richest 1% of Americans.

slogan: NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND

real-world policy: the legislation imposes restrictive testing policies and a 30% cut in education funding which has crippled many public schools. community colleges are having to triple tuition and UC school have had to plan 50% tution hikes to cover the newfound holes in their budgets.

slogan: CLEANER SKIES INIATIVE

real-world policy: repealed air-pollution limits to how they were in the 1970's. because the 70's are cool again?


i could go on. on the surface Bush presents a rosy picture of the goals and accomplishment of his administration - but as soon as I scratched just a few inches below the surface I realized that slogans don't make this country or this world any better - it takes honest and intelligent leadership at every level of government to implement these ideals in the real world - and Bush has failed at every step in this regard.

i don't have any issues with Geroge W. Bush's slogans. just the utter mess he's made of this country under their banner.


:?

chris

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shadi
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Post by shadi » Thu Oct 28, 2004 12:16 pm

i didn't vote in 2000 because i felt that my vote didn't matter. i disliked the electoral college system and wanted the president chosen by popular vote. needless to say, after the election i hated the electoral college system. it seems odd to me that even though more people in the U.S. did not want bush as president, he is our president. democracy?

it took alot of convincing to get me to vote this year, though most of that convincing came from bush himself over the last four years. four terrible, terrible years in my opinion. i will vote for kerry and hope that he gets enough to win in the electoral college. i cannot imagine bush being re-elected, though i have a sinking feeling in my stomach that he will be.

bush's politics teach our kids that violence is justified. they teach our kids that its ok to attack someone you don't like first. they teach our kids that phrases like "wanted dead or alive" are not just in the movies, but spoken by our highest role model. (though they'll say its the video games that teach our kids this stuff...)

my highest desire is to elect someone who will improve our image abroad through honest foreign policy. america is not seen as a vehicle for liberating countries; america is feared as a machine that makes other countries like itself. the first step towards a country's downfall is to have other countries fear you.

something that always strikes me as incredibly naive is the belief that terrorists are simply insane and that all there is to it - they simply need to be eliminated. there is no reason for their actions, they are just crazy and like to blow things up and kill people. while i do not condone terrorism (and i think they are just as sick as our wars) i do believe the first step in eliminating it is understanding the cause of it. has bush ever stopped and asked "why did they attack us?"

how much money have we spent in the "war on terror?" if we took all that money and invested it in helping other countries, promoting honest foreign policy and solving the roots of complicated problems that is the source of terrorists' animosity, i think we would be a safer nation. granted - this is much more difficult than simply going to war, and that's why bush isn't capable of this approach. my goal is to elect someone who has the capacity to even consider this approach.

at first i simply did not want bush in office, but after following the campaigns and watching 2 of the debates (i don't have television so i missed the first one) i am now convinced that kerry has intelligence and somewhat of an open mind. he seemed at least to be open to take solutions from both parties as long as we chose the right solution.

bush claims "i'm a war president." besides the point that that is simply a sad statement (he's mocking you america, right to your face), he also claims to be religious. now i'm not religious, but what would god have to say about the last four years? "way to go!" ... i don't think so.

anyway, its not really bush that is the problem. he is so ridiculously inept at speech, thought and politics that is more than obvious he is the absolute perfect scapegoat for others' agendas. having someone who can think on their own elected to office makes puppeteering more difficult.

i don't want another four years of destruction...

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Post by shadi » Thu Oct 28, 2004 12:42 pm

and for everyone harping on the "get over it" comment... apply your responses to all the innocent civilians we have killed in our wars (WAY more than the world trade center). i'm not saying the world trade center disaster wasn't terrible - it was. but people's brothers and mothers and sisters and fathers are dying terrible deaths across the seas with "U.S.A." slapped on the artillery... they just aren't americans and therefore its hard to feel for them the same way. but to them... what do you think it seems like? american terrorism...

Blue Sky dude

Post by Blue Sky dude » Thu Oct 28, 2004 12:52 pm

Okay here it comes.

I know what happened at september eleven is aweful and it was an atrocious experience, but so is the death of anybody you might know. What I meant by "get over it" is "move on", not "forget".
How about helping people through it.
Actually that's more what I meant, but it has to be done fast.

I think everyone sooner or later must face the death of someone near, may it be friend, mother, father, lover, whatever. But we have to keep living.

I admit it was a bad choice of words, but I'm tired of hearing "9/11" in every goddamn speech.

The problem with 9/11 is that everybody keeps throwing it in arguments knowing people will be affected personally, and that's why politicians of any party will use it as a pretext for completely unrelated actions as long as the american public keeps feeling angry and about it.

Yes the whole world hates Bin Laden and terrorists in general, but it is wrong (to me) to use "war on terrorism" to acheive personal goals and self-interest like Bush's administration did.
Mr Blue Sky wrote:
For 9/11: Yes it was horrible, but GET OVER IT goddamn it!

You just invalidated your "Take My Opinion Seriously" agreement.
How does my oppinion on one subject invalidates my oppinion on every other?

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Post by deantrippe » Thu Oct 28, 2004 1:30 pm

Mr Blue Sky wrote:
For 9/11: Yes it was horrible, but GET OVER IT goddamn it!
dryponder wrote:You just invalidated your "Take My Opinion Seriously" agreement.
How does my oppinion on one subject invalidates my oppinion on every other?
You made me lose all interest in listening to you with the same consideration I give to sensible, respectful people.

I'm sorry I can't manage to stay off this thread. Partisan BS just sets off my Spider-Sense, I guess.

Saying that Bush cut education is so untrue that it warrants response. (And I'm not going to argue about the war, but there ARE plenty of poor Iraqis who are happy to see us. I know people on the frontlines who have been amazed at the people coming out to welcome them, thanking them for overthrowing Sadaam--a truly dispicable, murderous bastard deserving of such action.) It's fine to be against Bush. It's alright to be against the war. But for crying out loud, know what the hell you're talking about when you try to argue these points.

Acting as if Bush is the devil isn't going to get you taken seriously. He's not. He's just another guy. You can disagree with him, but when you start lying to make your point you just sound like a partisan fool.

There are plenty of viable arguments against Bush, so make those. Saying Bush cut education is a lie. Kerry said it, but that doesn't make it true.

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Post by BlindingForce » Thu Oct 28, 2004 1:32 pm

Just found this post and read over the first three pages.

People. Listen to yourselves. We have people here for Bush. We have people here for Kerry. Now I don't presume to know it all. I don't. But don't you think there's a problem here when neither candidate is fit to run for president. Let's face facts. They both lie and have lied more then twice.

They bitch and moan and whine like little children and have been for months. These supposed leader and or future leader of the free world. They both invoke the name of christianity but more so hypocracy. A true Christian as well as a true Muslim would never kill another human being. So I can't stand that right there. You want to start a war or go after terrorists more vigorously...fine. But do not invoke religion. Especially when you can't even define yourself as a predominantly christian country.

And then there's the draft. Realize now that no matter what happens in less than a week from now either candidate can and most likely will invoke the draft. If we put in Bush then it's more war for 4 more years and with our boys and girls fighting over there...eventually they need a break and they need to retire for the job they're doing.

So where is the new blood going to come from. You and me. All of us. Wether you are for the war or not. You will have to go over there an fight a rich liar's war.

I was for this war knowing full well we had the best intellgience and resources in the world. I was for this war knowing we were going to go in there and get who we needed to get. Obviously it doesn't happen overnight but these people sent our loved ones in there on a lie. And lies come out everyday. So all of you Bushies out there. Stowe it because he lied. And if he didn't lie you know what...others in his administration did. And he has all the power in the world to call them on it and replace them. But he doesn't. He shoots from the hip and doesn't give a damn about anyone else. Yet we're no longer in the days were our king leads the battle on the front line. He sits behind a desk. You and I will have to go fight a non black and white war in a free country where we have choice. But not in this. Not at all.

And yet people think this is right.

And Kerry will do this too. Among all the other things he can't form a solid opinion on.

As for me. I prefer not to throw my vote away. As a church going catholic I cannot in good concience vote for either man when they lie to me right to my face. And before you make a statement about the church...don't confuse Faith with the Insitution. There are two very different things. I could vote for Nader but it's just throwing my vote away as well.

And this is all happening in America. Of course this is really a short version of what I believe but in the end I don't like either of these candidates. I work in New York City and I take the subway. I'm getting married next year and I have to worry wether or not I'm going to make it to then. Wether I even have the choice.

And the thing about this country. Everyone says well if you don't vote you don't have an opinion. Well those men and women are over there fighting for more then just a right to vote. A right to choice. Be it what you say, what faith you believe (even though we all for the most part believe in a god...we just pray to god differently), or wether you vote or NOT...it is choice.

Call me naive but I'd rather make the statements above then bicker back and forth about who is right and who is wrong. Because they're both wrong. In many ways.

So just realize all this when you place you're votes. We shoudln't have to pick the lesser of the two evils. Or live in a world where we have to worry about where or next meal comes from, or if we'll be killed on the street, while other people lie to us.

And that's the short version. I don't consider myself democrat or republican at this point. It's just embarrasing either way.
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